Russy Karanjia was a special correspondent at The Times of India, before leaving to start Blitz
in 1941. A small, delicately architectured Parsi, quite a contrast to
his towering reputation, Karanjia prided himself on his interviews with
world leaders from Anwar Sadat to Nikita Krushchev to Marshal Tito in the Nehruvian non-alignment era.
His interactions with the Shah of Iran resulted in a book The Mind of a Monarch.
A self-declared atheist and Marxist, Karanjia tore into crooks and charlatans, and among his favourite targets was the Sai Baba
of Puttaparthi. When Sai Baba gave him rare access and interviews,
Karanjia turned around, and admitted he was wrong, and proclaimed him as
a living god, even becoming his follower.
The
Extended Interview given by Bhagawan Sri Sathya Sai Baba to the Senior
Editor, Sri R.K. Karanjia of Blitz News Magazine in September of 1976 :
R.K. Karanjia, Blitz Newsmagazine: At
the outset, Swamiji, we would like to know something about your triple
incarnation -- past, present and future -- that is, from Shirdi Sai Baba
to Sathya Sai Baba and the Prema Sai Baba to come, according to your
prophecy.
Baba: First of all, you must
grasp the complete oneness of the three incarnations of contemporary
times with those of the past like Rama and Krishna. This is a difficult
task. When people cannot understand the present, how can they comprehend
the past ? Every incarnation is full and complete in relation to the
time, environment and the task. There is no distinction between the
various appearances of God as Rama, Krishna or Sai.
Rama came to
feed the roots of truth and righteousness, Krishna followed to foster
the plant of peace and love. Now these sacred principles are in danger
of wholesale destruction by reason of human weakness under the onslaught
of evil forces. They are overcoming the good, the spiritual and the
divine in man. That is why the present Avathar has come invested with
the totality of cosmic power to save dharma (righteousness) from
anti-dharma.
Q: By the present Avathar, you mean Sai Baba?
Baba:
Yes, I incarnate from age to age, time to time, to save dharma from
anti-dharma. Whenever strife, discord and disharmony overwhelm the
world, God incarnates in human form to show mankind the way to love,
harmony and peace.
Q: That is understandable. But skeptics wonder why God should assume human form?
Baba:
Because that is the only way to incarnate the God within man. The
Avathar takes the human form and behaves in a human way so that humanity
can feel kinship with divinity. At the same time he rises to godly
heights so that mankind also can aspire to reach God. The realization of
the indwelling God as the motivator of life is the task for which
Avathars come in human form.
Previous Avathars like Rama
and Krishna had to destroy a few individuals who could be identified as
enemies of the godly way of life and thus restore the dharmic path.
Today, however, wickedness has tainted so many that humanity itself
stands under the threat of destruction. Therefore, in My present
Avathar, I have come armed with the fullness of the power of formless
God to correct mankind, raise human consciousness and put people back on
the right path of truth, righteousness, peace and love to divinity.
Message of Triple Incarnation
Q: Why had this task to be divided into three separate incarnations of the Shirdi, Sathya and Prema Babas?
Baba:
They are not separate. I have already mentioned the complete oneness of
the three in the final objective of the mission. I will give you an
example. Take a kilo of gur (a sweet substance). The whole of it tastes
sweet. Next break it into small pieces. Each of them is sweet. Finally
break them into small grains. You find the same sweetness in them. So
the difference is one of quantity and not quality. It is the same with
the Avathars. Their tasks and powers requisite to them differ according
to the time, the situation and the environment. But they belong to, and
derive from, one and the same dharma swarup or divine body.
Let
us take the example of fruit. It begins with the seed which grows into
the tree and from it comes the fruit. Work can be compared to the seed,
worship to the tree and wisdom to the fruit.
The previous
Avathar, Shirdi Baba, laid the base for secular integration and gave
mankind the message [that] duty is work. The mission of the present
Avathar is to make everybody realize that the same God or divinity
resides in everyone. People should respect, love and help each other
irrespective of color or creed. Thus all work can become a way of
worship. Finally, Prema Sai, the third Avathar will promote the evangel
news that not only does God reside in everybody, but everybody is God.
That will be the final wisdom which will enable every man and woman to
go to God. The three Avathars carry the triple message of work, worship
and wisdom.
Man Must Develop into Mankind
Q: So that is the holy mission and divine purpose of this triple incarnation?
Baba:
To unite all mankind into one caste or family in the establishment of
the unity - that is, Atmic realization - in every man or woman, which is
the basis on which cosmic design rests. Once this is realized, the
common divine heritage that binds man to man to God will become apparent
and love shall prevail as the guiding light of the universe.
In
the first place, man has to develop into mankind in the fullness of its
integrated potential. At present mankind as such is absent in the world.
There is no synthesis between thought, word and deed. Man today thinks
one thing, says something different, and acts quite the contrary. So
what we have is the individual man, confused, confounded and bombarded
with contradictory thoughts. What we do not see is mankind in him
motivated by good thoughts, good words and good deeds. We have to make
him realize God within him to develop a synthesis correlating thought,
word and deed.
Once
this primary lesson is taught in the family, the school, the college,
the society, the cities, the states, the nations of the world, then man
will become conscious of the fact that all mankind belongs to one
family. As Christ preached, all are one, be alike to everyone. The vital
issue is the oneness: one caste, one class, one creed of humanity: and
this can be achieved only by the surrender of one's self or ego to pure,
selfless, universal love and devotion. Love is the basis, the common
denominator, and devotion the divine spark, the cementing, unifying,
integrating factor between man and man, and man and God.
Let
Me give you an illustration. (Baba spreads his handkerchief on the
ground between us). Here is a piece of cloth. As you see, it is all made
of threads. Pull out the threads separately and the cloth becomes weak.
Put them together and it is firm and strong. It is the same with
mankind. Love binds it like the million, billion threads in cloth and
devotion reunites it with God. I, therefore embody love and use it as My
instrument to regenerate man and create the brotherhood of mankind with
the help of the latter's devotion. I always say: Start the day with
love. Fill the day with love. End the day with love. This is the
quickest way, the surest path to God.
Life is love, enjoy it;
Life is a challenge, meet it;
Life is a song, sing it;
Life is a dream, realize it;
Life is a game, play it.
Shirdi Baba Incarnate
Q: Did Shirdi Baba actually claim that he would be born eight years after his death in 1918?
Baba: Yes, he did. This has been recorded by Kaka Dikshit as well as a number of other devotees who were with Shirdi Baba.
Q: What makes you so sure that you are Shirdi Baba incarnate?
Baba:
The knowledge of My own authentic experience, of course. Since no one
who knew Shirdi Baba is alive today, there is no evidence except My own
knowledge and experience. The very fact that I announced that I am
Shirdi Baba 40 years ago, when I was only 10 and when nobody in this
part of the South had known or even heard of Shirdi Baba proves this
fact.
Q:
The existing situation driven by evil forces to destruction as you have
correctly analyzed it, appears to suggest the inevitability of another
Mahabharata-type (an epic relating to the battle of Kurukshetra) war.
Does this mean that the salvation for which you are working can be
consummated only after a destructive war?
Baba: The evil
must and shall be removed before such a catastrophe takes place. There
will be minor wars and skirmishes, of course: these cannot be helped in
the existing state of affairs. The Mahabharata war was a different issue
altogether. Lord Krishna decreed it and, in fact, led Arjuna to the
battlefield in order to rid the world of evil men and ungodly forces.
Today,
as I told you, the evil is so widespread that humanity itself would be
destroyed in a nuclear holocaust in the event of a world war. It is to
prevent such a catastrophe that this Avathar has come to raise human
consciousness above the existing syndrome of anger, hate, violence and
war and save the world from disaster. This can be achieved only by the
reestablishment of the brotherhood of mankind though the Vedas, Shastras
and all religions with their evangel of dharma to liberate the human
race from the chains of karma (the cycle of birth and death). I always
say: Let the different faiths exist, let them flourish, let the glory of
God be sung in all the languages in a variety of tunes. They should be
the ideal. Respect the differences between the faiths and recognize them
as valid so far as they do not extinguish the flame of unity.
God is Man Minus Desire
Q: From what Baba has said, it seems that there is not much difference or dichotomy between God and man. Am I right?
Baba:
Quite right, God is man and man is God. All of us have something of
God, the divine spark, within us. All men are divine like Myself, but
with the spirit embodied in human flesh and bone. The only difference is
that they are unaware of this Godhood. They have come into this karmic
prison through the mistakes of many lives. I have taken this mortal form
out of My own free will. They are bound to the body, while I am free of
this bondage. The main difference is that they are shoved hither and
thither by desire but I have no desire except the supreme one to make
them desireless.
Take paddy or rice by way of an illustration.
Every grain of rice is enclosed in a husk. You have to remove the husk
to get the grain of rice. Now husk and rice, both come from the same
seed. Rice is the equivalent of God in man, while the husk can be
compared to desire which reduces God to man. Therefore, My formula is:
LIFE + DESIRE = MAN
LIFE - DESIRE = GOD
The Way to Self-Realization
Q: In what way can life without desire make Gods of men?
Baba:
Life without desire means the realization of the pure, genuine self
that is Atma. Bound to desire, the self degenerates into selfishness.
Atma turns into ego. The way of self-realization is to cleanse the self
of this ego of selfishness. Then you reach a state of consciousness
beyond the mind or intellect, revealing the true self that is God. The
mind is like a cloth that covers andstifles consciousness, the threads
of which are desires. If we give up the desires, the threads fall and
the cloth disappears, revealing our true nature. That is what the
Vedanta (epic of ancient wisdom and knowledge) means when it enjoins
that one must get rid of the ego to realize oneself.
Q: You mean that the mind of man as such creates the block between man and God?
Baba:
Yes. One must make a distinction between the mind that is the ego, and
the real self that is consciousness. The latter helps us to cross the
frontiers of the ego-mind and become aware of oneself as the witness of
truth. Normally the scientist of the mind looks outside to what can be
perceived by the senses existing in the world of the mind to ask: What
is this? The scientist of consciousness, on the other hand, always looks
inside to that which is beyond the senses or the grasp of the mind to
ask: What is that?
One has, therefore, to rise beyond the
mind to consciousness to achieve self-realization. To gain the infinite,
universal Atma, the embodied self must break out of the puny, finite
little prison of individuality. Desire belongs to the senses, the brain,
the mind; once you become free of it, you realize the self, Atma,
consciousness, enlightenment, and become one with the cosmic power. Self
realization is God-realization. Thus man reaches God.
Q:
What is the significance of the vibuthi (holy ash) and the trinkets that
you materialize and give to people? Is there any need for a Godman to
demonstrate such miracles which any magician can conjure?
Baba:
So far as I am concerned this is evidence of My divinity. It is not by
any means an exhibition of divinity. All performances of magic, as you
know are done for the sake of income. These are tricks of the magicians
trade. They constitute a kind of legalized cheating, the transfer of an
object from one place to another by a trick of the hand which goes
unnoticed. They involve no siddhi (occult power) or miraculous power.
What
I do is quite a different act of creation. It is neither magic, nor is
it siddhi power either. For one thing, I seek no return. For another, I
do not cheat people by transferring objects, but I create them. Again, I
do so not because of any need or desire of exhibition of My powers. For
Me this is a kind of calling card to convince people of My love for
them and secure their devotion in return. Since love is formless, I do
materialization as evidence of My love. It is merely a symbol.
Q: Still I do not understand why you should materialize rings, bracelets, watches and those kind of trinkets...
Baba:
Most people desire talismans as symbolic of My protection. So I provide
them. When they are in trouble they feel the grip of the ring, bracelet
or watch to remember Me and call Me to their rescue so that I can help
them. On the other hand, if I give them something they cannot wear, they
are likely to store it and forget about it.
The main
thing is that these trinkets or talismans, by whatever name you call
them, give people a sense of security and protection they need in times
of troubles or crises and create a symbolic link covering the long
distances between them and Myself. When the devotees need Me, these
objects flash the message as if by wireless and I instantly come to
their rescue.
Q: I am sorry to be persistent, Swamiji, but
isn't the gift of an Omega or HMT watch an act of cheating the company
or breach of its patent?
Baba: I assure you there is no
such thing. It would be cheating the company or breaching the patent if
it were a case of transfer of the watch from one place to the other. But
I do not transfer; I totally create. Whatever I will, instantly
materializes. I know of no company that has complained about any breach
of patent.
Significance of Vibuthi (Holy Ash)
Q:
What about vibuthi materialized by you? We would like to know its
relevance because your critics are trying to discredit you by sending
around magicians who produce exact replicas of vibuthi.
Baba:
What I materialize is a manifestation of divinity with a potent
significance as well as symbolism. It is symbolic of the cosmic,
immortal and infinite nature of all forms of God, Atma or the spirit --
that is, what is left when everything worldly, transient and changeable
has burnt away.
I have spoken to you of the imperative of a
desireless life. After Shiva had burnt the God of desire, Kama, into a
heap of ashes, he adorned himself with the ash to shine as the conqueror
of desire. When Kama was destroyed, Prema reigned as the Goddess of
love. Such is the significance of ash.
In the first place,
it is symbolic of the life-death cycle in which everything ultimately
reduces itself to ash. "For dust thou art, and unto dust shall thou
returnest." Ash or dust is the final condition of things. It cannot
undergo any further change. In the spiritual context, it constitutes a
warning to the receiver to give up desire, to burn all passions,
attachments and temptations, and makes one pure in thought, word and
deed.
It is in order to press home this lesson that I
materialize ash for those who come to Me with love and devotion. Like
the other materializations, it also acts as a talisman, healing the sick
and giving protection to those who need it. It is the symbol of
divinity, quite different from the magician's trickery mentioned by you.
Miracles of Healing
Q:
You are believed to have performed miraculous cures to the extent of
resurrecting the dead. There are cases where you reportedly saved
people from drowning and other accidents in distant places. Medical
experts have attested to remote controlled surgical operations performed
by you. How do you manage these?
Baba: By My own sankalpa
-- that is, divine will and power. As an Avathar, this power is
intrinsic, inherent, total and natural to My will and decision. I need
no mantra (mystical formula), no sadhana (spiritual practice), no tantra
(sacred writings) and no yantra (pilgrimage) to perform the so-called
miracles which are natural to My state. My powers are simply the
expression or assertion of the reality of goodness which merges Me with
everything, everywhere, at all times and places. The miracles belong to
the boundless power of God.
Now coming to the main points
of your question, this healing phenomena has a dual aspect. I can cure,
save, even resurrect people provided they are in a spiritually receptive
condition. It is like the positive and negative currents of
electricity. My capacity to heal can be compared to the positive
current. Your devotion to Me is like the negative current. Once the two
come together, the devotion provides what is called the miracle of
healing.
It is man's mind that is really responsible for
his illness or health. He himself is the cause or motivator of either.
So when it comes to healing or curing, the necessary faith has to be
created within his mind for the purpose. All I do is invest him with the
confidence, will and power to cure himself. It is My abounding love
reciprocated by the intensity of the devotee's faith in Me that produce
the desired result.
Not Siddhis or Magical Tricks
Q: So these are not siddhic powers or magical tricks, as your critics suggest?
Baba:
They are neither magical tricks nor siddhic (occult) powers, which can
come to everybody with the appropriate discipline and yoga exercises,
but My powers to protect, heal and save people and materialize objects
originate in God and can be used only by an Avathar. They are in no way
designed, disciplined or developed, but flow from cosmic power.
Q: Some say that you command invisible spirits which can transfer objects from one place to another on your orders.
Baba:
There is no need for Me to command invisible spirits since My own
divine will materializes the objects. I am everything, everywhere,
omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent; and so whatever I will,
instantly happens. Like the qualities of truth, love and peace, these
are things that generate the atmic (godly) or cosmic forces behind the
universe.
Q: Your followers at home as well as abroad
claim positive evidence of the presence of Baba in their innermost
hearts. Some have written of you as their in-dwelling God. What is the
explanation of this phenomenon?
Baba:
This is the grace begotten of My love for them reciprocated by their
devotion. After all, as I repeatedly say, we all belong to the
samedivine principle. The godliness which is present in everybody in the
form of a little spark is present in Me as the full flame, and it is My
mission to develop every little spark of God in everyone to the
fullness of the divine flame.
The first imperative of this
development is that the receiver of the grace also provides from his or
her side the devotion necessary to the consummation. Those who carry
the presence of Baba in their hearts like an in-dwelling God belong to
these kinds of devotees. They come to Me, see Me and hear Me, experience
My love for them and receive it with devotion. Thus, they become part
of Me and My divinity.
To the doubting or confused ones, I
give this illustration. Those who want to secure pearls from the sea
have to dive deep to fetch them. It does not help them to dabble among
the shallow waves near the shore and say that the sea has no pearls and
all stories about them are false. Likewise, if a person wants to secure
the love and grace of this Avathar, he must also dive deep and get
submerged in Sai Baba. Then, only, will he become one with Me and carry
Me in his innermost heart.
Q: The critics of Swamiji ask
why Sai Baba does not help people in distress by bringing rains in times
of drought or creating food where there is famine by means of his
sankalpa shakti (divine power, universal energy). Cannot an Avathar help
humanity to control the natural forces and prevent calamities like
earthquakes, floods, droughts, famine and epidemics?
Baba:
This is precisely what I am doing by incarnating the in-dwelling God in
man to overcome such calamities. There are two ways in which an Avathar
can help people: an instant solution as against a long term one.
Any
instant solution would go against the fundamental quality of nature
itself as well against the karmic law of cause and effect. Most people
live in the material world of their desires and egos, which is governed
by this law. They reap the fruits of their actions. This brings about
their evolution or devolution. If the Avathar intervenes to instantly
solve their problems, it would stop all action, development, even
evolution. This solution can be ruled out because it totally negates the
natural laws.
The other and more effective alternative
presents a long-term solution whereby the Avathar leads the people
themselves to a higher level of consciousness to enable them to
understand the truth of spiritual laws so that they may turn towards
righteousness and steadfastly work for better conditions. This will
relate them back to nature and the karmic law of causation. This would
then transcend the cycle of cause and effect in which today they are
involved as victims and thereby command and control the natural forces
to be able to avert the calamities you mention.
Raising Man to God
Q:
You mean that you are presently raising the consciousness of mankind to
a godlike condition to enable them to command their own destiny?
Baba:
Exactly. They would become shareholders of My sankalpa shakti (divine
power, universal energy). I have to work through them, rouse the
in-dwelling God in them and evolve them to a higher reality in order to
enable them to master the natural law and forces. If I cure everything
instantly, leaving the people at their present levels of consciousness,
they would soon mess up things and be at one another's throats again
with the result that the same chaotic situation would develop in the
world.
Suffering and misery are the inescapable acts of
the cosmic drama. God does not decree these calamities but man invites
them by way of retribution for his own evil deeds. This is corrective
punishment which induces mankind to give up the wrong path and return to
the right path so that he may experience the godlike condition of
sat-chit-ananda -- that is, an existence of wisdom and bliss. All this
is part of the grand synthesis in which the negatives serve to glorify
the positives. Thus death glorifies immortality, ignorance glorifies
wisdom, misery glorifies bliss, night glorifies dawn.
So, finally,
if the Avathar brings the calamities mentioned by you to an immediate
end, which I can do, and do, when there is a great need, the whole drama
of creation with its karmic (universal, inescapable duty) law will
collapse. Remember, these calamities occur not because of what God has
made of man but really because of what man has made of man. Therefore,
man has to be unmade and remade with his ego destroyed and replaced by a
transcendent consciousness so that he may rise above the karmic to
command.
Q: Have you succeeded in bringing about this synthesis, Swamiji, particularly with the wealthy and powerful classes?
Baba:
I have not reached all of them as a class, but to the extent that I am
able to contact them individually, the results are encouraging. The
wealthy and powerful, of course, present a difficult problem in the
matter of transformation. They need a special approach. The poor people,
on the other hand, are very cooperative. They understand, appreciate
and help My plans and ideas.
Q: What is the solution to this escalating conflict between wealth and power on one side, and poverty and weakness on the other?
Baba:
The transformation of both into a single cooperative brotherhood on
terms of equality without competition or conflict. This can result only
from truth and love. The main issue is to fuse the two classes into one
single class. The problem, however, is one of bringing them together on a
common base or platform. Wealthy people live isolated in a certain
state or condition. The poor also are similarly isolated in another
state or condition. How do we bring them together?
I do so
in many subtle ways by breaking the barriers of wealth and poverty and
creating a feeling of equality and oneness between the poor and the
rich. In this ashram (spiritual community) you find them living and
working together, even performing menial labor on terms of complete
equality. Here there are no distinctions whatever, nor any special
facilities for the rich. They live, eat, work, worship and sleep like
the poor. All live like a community of workers to share the common
austerities of the ashram.
Despite
our rigorous discipline, industrialists and businessmen want to come
here. Why? Because they secure peace of mind beyond physical comfort
which no wealth or power on earth can purchase or provide.
Thus
we open to them a wonderful new world of spiritual treasures and they
must sacrifice material wants and comforts. My mission is to show them
the way to peace of mind which everybody, rich and poor alike, desires.
In that process of spiritual evolution, the seeker learns that this
blissful state cannot be purchased for money in a shop or gifted to one
by anybody but oneself. It can come only from the universal source of
divinity, the in-dwelling God that embraces poor and rich alike. This
concept creates a common fellowship, a brother hood of give and take
between the wealthy and the poor. Those who have too much are obliged to
give up their unnecessary wants, while those who have too little get
their needs fulfilled.
After all, in spiritual terms, all
mankind belongs to one and the same class, caste or religion. The divine
principles in each and all of them derive from one and the same God.
This fundamental oneness has to be made manifest to them through direct
contact with spiritual realities and the persuasive expanding power of
love, till they become part of the universal religion of work, worship
and wisdom.
Material Wealth is Spiritual Poverty
Q:
All this would be simple and welcome evangel for the poor since they
lose nothing and gain everything from your philosophy, but what about
the rich who have to lose all if they followed it?
Baba: That is
the crux of the problem. They simply have to lose, surrender, submerge
their false values if they want My grace. So long as people continue to
be slaves of materialistic definitions of wealth and poverty, there can
be no solution. I, therefore, try to convert their minds and hearts to
spiritual values and truths.
After all, who is the richest
man? One who has the largest wants and, therefore, troubles and
worries? Or one who is satisfied with the barest necessities of life
and, therefore, is more or less desireless and comparatively happy?
Judged from this criterion of happiness, the poor are spiritually rich
but the rich are spiritually poor. It is not material but spiritual
satisfaction that ultimately makes life worth living.
As I
have said before, life without desire brings divinity to man; and those
who seek My grace must shed desire and greed. Riches provide a fatal
temptation. They are the source and cause of human bondage. The desire
to raise the standard of life can never be satisfied. It leads to
multiplication of wants and consequent troubles and frustrations.
The
solution lies in our emphasis on the quality as against the standard of
life, on high thinking and lowly living. The mind is the horse, the
body the cart: to achieve mental peace, you must put the horse of high
thinking before the cart of physical comfort.
Q: This is sound philosophy but how do you implement it in action?
Baba:
The rich as well as the poor come to Sai Baba to seek love, peace and
liberation from their problems and troubles. My prescription to them is
absolute selflessness and desirelessness. To the poor, this is a natural
state or condition. So My love flows to them to embrace their devotion.
Thus they obtain My grace.
The
rich, on the other hand, cannot secure this grace without surrendering
their materialistic outlook and selfish attachments. So it becomes
obligatory for them to sacrifice material greed to receive spiritual
grace. I tell them:
Ego lives by getting and forgetting,
Love lives by giving and forgiving.
In this way, I change their mental attitude. I transform their monkey-minds into loving, giving and forgiving minds.
Q: Monkey-minds, Baba -- what do you mean?
Baba:
It is a kind of mentality that is used by peasants to trap and destroy
monkeys. When the peasant wants to catch a monkey, he uses a big pot
with a narrow mouth as a trap. Inside the pot he puts edibles which the
monkey loves. The monkey finds the pot and puts its paws inside to grasp
as much of the stuff as it can hold. Once it does so, it is unable to
pull out its paws from the small mouth of the pot. It imagines that
someone inside the pot is holding its paws, so it struggles and attempts
to runaway with the pot, only to fail and get trapped. No one is
holding the monkey; it has trapped itself because of its greed. If only
it lets the stuff in its paws go, it will be free of bondage.
In
the same way I tell rich people, man is tempted by the wealth,
pleasures and desires of the world. When he gets lost in such attachment
and suffers the consequences of greed, he thinks that something is
binding him down, capturing him, destroying him. The moment he gives up
material wealth and desires, he will be free. I make him realize his
bondage to the monkey-mind and liberate himself.
Baba's Spiritual Socialism
Q:
Baba seems to be prescribing a kind of spiritual socialism based on the
conversion of wealth into a trusteeship for the removal of poverty.
Baba:
Yes, a trusteeship based on love, cooperation and brotherhood. What
else can one do? The change must evolve from the heart; it cannot be
imposed from outside. All materialist doctrines have failed to bring
about any real transformation. There is no equality anywhere. Only
spiritual transformation into a desireless mentality can put through the
imperative revolution in human consciousness from which alone the
desired changes can accrue.
We need to transform society from
false to real values. We have to convince people that the ideal of a
high standard of life is wrong. It must be replaced with a high level of
living and thinking on the basis of humility, morality, compassion and
etachment, as against the existing greed for competitive luxury and
conspicuous consumption. People have to be convinced that the only way
to rouse the latent divinity in them is to master desires and conquer
greed for pleasure and luxury instead of being a slave to these false
materialistic values.
Q:
Then I take it that the various educational and social service
organizations run by Baba -- some 3,000 in all -- are designed to create
the cadres necessary for bringing about the desired socioeconomic
change by means of love and persuasion?
Baba: They are
designed to put the new generation on the Sai path of truth,
righteousness, peace, love and nonviolence. Their motto -- work is
worship and duty is God -- seeks to bring in the new social order
related to Sathya -- that is, truth, and dharma -- namely, right action.
Q:
India has been described as a rich country of poor people. We have the
wealth of the whole world locked up in the bosom of our good earth. And
yet the people remain economically poor and backward. Have you any
solution to rehabilitate our economy?
Baba:
Your analysis is correct. The solution to the problem you have posed
lies in hard work and increased production on a cooperative basis. To
achieve this, one has to rid people of the disease of individuality,
greed and selfishness. Every individual must be taught to think and work
in the broader concept of society and its needs. Once that is done,
there will be less talk and more work.
Here again, it is
the spiritual path that can save this country and the world from the
wrongs of a materialistic order. What we need is a synthesis of the
spiritual and material aspects of life. That will provide man with the
social conscience and cooperative spirit imperative to the creation of
national wealth and prosperity through selfless, cooperative labor.
Q:
Very good counsel, Swamiji - but the trouble is that all the wealth
created by labor appears to find its way into the pockets of a rich and
powerful minority. Have you a spiritual prescription for this
inequality?
Baba:
There is no doubt that the distribution is not taking place properly.
The existing doctrines of equality, socialism, etc., have not succeeded
in achieving equality in distribution of wealth and property. The
difficulty is that you equalize, wealth, land and property by
legalization, but can the law bring about equality in the desires of the
people? This requires the healing touch of spiritualism.
To
begin with, one has to cure desire and its evil consequences. We must
persuade the rich that desire and its fulfillment in materialistic wants
is an aspect of the monkey-mind which can only harm them and put them
under bondage. That alone will solve the problem of inequality and
maldistribution.
The rich will give up their extravagant
wants, the poor will get what they need and a little more; and this
process will bring about more equitable distribution.
Q: To conclude this section, Swamiji, would you sum up the main causes of India's social and economic backwardness?
Baba:
From a purely material viewpoint, it is a question of supply and
demand. Because of the overpowering material values of our society, the
demand is growing larger and larger, while the supply remains the same
or decreases. The solution, obviously, is to increase the supply or
decrease the demand. Then, of course, there is the problem of growing
population. This triangular issue of economic imbalance needs to be
spiritualised if an effective solution is to be found.
It
is here that our insistence on a desireless life, in which human wants
are reduced to the minimum needs, comes to the rescue as the only
possible way of restoring the social and economic balance. Curb your
desires, reduce your wants, live in spiritual austerity, and the
available material will be sufficient for all humanity. More than that,
the tensions of a competitive socioeconomic system will be dissolved and
peace of mind will be restored.
Life is like a journey in
a vehicle between birth and death. The body is the vehicle in which you
are motoring to death. The less luggage you carry the better. Why
encumber yourself with worldly riches and material comforts, when you
may have to change your course or even meet with some dislocation or
accident and, in any case, at the end of the journey you will have to
leave behind all your possessions accept your Atma? Would it not be
better to attend to the immortal spirit rather than waste time which is
running out on gaining wealth and securing comforts?
This is the logic of spiritualism with which I seek to change the attitude of people.
Q:
Baba has already clarified most of the issues raised by Dr. Narasimhiah
and other critics. Some, however, remain unanswered. Narasimhiah asks
why you do not materialize a pumpkin or a cucumber or a watch with a
distinct mark to prove that it is your creation and not a transfer of
somebody else's manufacture?
Baba: Pumpkins and
cucumbers can be materialized as easily as rings or objects. But these
are perishable objects and the whole point of materialization, as I have
already explained, lies in their permanence. That is why rings or
watches become more serviceable as talismans or means of contact and
communication, between the Avathar and his devotees.
The point
they are trying to make is that big objects like pumpkins cannot be
transferred while small ones like rings can be. But as I have repeatedly
said, I do not transfer things by a sleight-of-hand. I create them to
be talismans.
Now coming to your question about a ring or watch
with a distinct mark to prove that it is My own creation, would you like
Me to materialize something for you?
Miracle of OM Ring
Q: Yes, Swamiji, I certainly would.
Baba
waved his hand in the air to produce a silver ring bearing the
inscription OM in the centre with Sai Ram marks on the sides and held My
right hand to gently put it on the third finger. It was an exact fit
and it was precisely what I wanted from Baba.
Q: Thank
you, Baba, you have answered the question beautifully. Now to
Narasimhiah's unanswered point regarding the bogus Sai Krishna or
Pandavapura exposed by his committee as a fraud and a cheat. He alleges
that the boy had your patronage.
Baba:
I can assure you there is absolutely no connection between him and
Myself. His people have several times attempted to arrange a meeting
between us, but we have refused their requests. Of course, thousands of
people, as you saw this morning, come here for darshan. There are others
also who masquerade as My disciples or make money using My name. As
this happens not only here but in other states and even abroad, we
cannot do anything about it. They expose themselves sooner or later, as
did this boy. I have absolutely no connection or relationship with such
people.
Q: The Narasimhiah Committee wanted to investigate
your miracles scientifically under controlled conditions, as they put
it. You rejected the proposal. Would you like to comment on this
controversy?
Baba: How can science which is bound to a
physical and materialist outlook investigate transcendental phenomena
beyond its scope, reach or comprehension? This is a fallacy on the face
of it. One belongs to the material and the other to a spiritual plane.
Science must confine its inquiry only to things belonging to the human
senses, while spiritualism transcends the senses. If you want to
understand the nature of spiritual power you can do so only through the
path of spirituality and not science. What science has been able to
unravel is merely a fraction of the cosmic phenomena; it tends, however,
to exaggerate its contribution.
Q: That is true, Swamiji,
but science is developing all the time so that the metaphysics of
yesterday become the physics of today.
Baba:
Quite right, but it is still blind to the vast and invisible world of
consciousness. The very fact that science is changing all the time
proves its incapacity to investigate the ultimate and absolute truth.
Some time ago, scientists maintained that the atom cannot be broken, but
recently they succeeded in breaking it. They are still ignorant about
the realities of the pranic force behind the atom, which is the least of
its components.
Science is merely a glow-worm in the
light and splendor of the sun. It is true that it can research, discover
and gather a lot of information about nature and its material functions
and use it for the development of worldly things. Spiritualism, on the
other hand, reigns over the cosmic field where science has no place.
That is why some discoveries of science are useful while others can be
disastrous.
As I have said before, Dr Narasimhiah and his
group are like the Telugu men who go to the cinema to see a Tamil film.
They will see only the dancing, the fighting and violence, the heroes
and villains, the star with a beautiful face and these kinds of
superficial things, but they will lose the subtler aspects such as the
music and the poetry, the plot, the dialogue, the jokes and the like.
However,
as I have said again and again, those who want to understand Me are
welcome here. It is the spirit of the investigation that is important.
Foreign parapsychologists have come here and examined Me in such a
positive and constructive spirit. You have seen their reports. They do
not write letters or make public demands.
Narasimhiah's
approach was improper; that is why I rejected it. If it were not so, he
would have been welcome. I do not call people here so that they may bow
to a God. I want them to come, see, hear, study, observe, experience and
realize Baba. Then only, they will understand Me and appreciate the
Avathar.
Q: Dr. Narasimhiah maintains that according to
science, "Nothing can be created out of nothing." You have evidently
negated this law of science with a transcendental formula for
controlling cosmic energy and producing paranormal power. Can you
explain this mystery?
Baba:
The formula that nothing can be created out of nothing is appropriate
to the limited field and dimensions of science. It does not at all apply
to the transcendental field and dimensions of spirituality. In the
latter field, anything can be created by the supreme will. All that
exists can be made to disappear and what does not exist can be made to
appear.
Our history and tradition, scripture as well as
literature, are full of such incidents which they call miracles. The
material laws and formulas simply do not apply to divinity. For Me this
is not a matter of any mystery or mystique. What I will, happens: what I
order, materializes.
Q: The Vice-Chancellor appears to
ridicule your statement that "There is God in us all." He asks: "Is this
not pure escapism? How can God be so unsure of Himself?" Your
rejoinder, please?
Baba:
His questions contradict the very basis of Indian philosophy as well as
that of most religions. All our scriptures assert that God is present
in everyone. According to Vivekananda, "God is present in all." The only
thing that is manifest and common to the whole world and, in fact,
governs and directs the entire universe, is divinity. Nothing else
really exists except divinity.
Mine is no escapism but the
fundamental and eternal truth. I say so not because I am unsure of My
own divinity. It is My confidence in its absolute and total authenticity
that makes Me affirm this fact. It is the scientists who are so unsure
of themselves that they indulge in escapist theories.
For
example, they say that the moon is lifeless. Simultaneously, they
maintain that all matter consists of moving atoms. Now isn't the moon
also a conglomerate of the same moving atoms? Then how can it be
lifeless? There is no matter which does not consist of atoms, electrons,
neutrons and protons, which are also constantly moving. This energy,
too, is God.
So also there is no human being in whom there is no
divinity. To say there is no God in man is like saying that there is no
atom in the moon or any large lump of matter. The omnipresence of God
has been described in our ancient texts as: "ano baniyammahatoo maniyam"
(God is a small particle in the smallest of particles and a large mass
in the largest of masses). In this context, how can one say that God is
not in man?
Q:
Another pertinent issue raised by your critics is that you show a
preference for wealthy and powerful people as opposed to the poor and
week in the matter of divine gifts, miracle cures and individual
darshans. Is this true? If so, why?
Baba: This is wrong. I
never see or make any distinction between the rich and the poor. I only
look at them from the viewpoint of their devotion, their desires, the
sacrifice they are willing to make and their troubles. You were here
this morning and saw hundreds of people, a few rich, the majority poor.
Did you find Me making any distinction? All those I brought with Me to
this room were poor and weak, sick or troubled.
In My
view, those who appear to the world as wealthy or powerful persons
really bring to Me their troubled hearts and sick minds. I cure them by
asking them to surrender material wealth and power to spiritual peace
and grace.
Q: From what Baba has hitherto said, it appears
that your mission is to enable mankind to rediscover and incarnate its
lost godliness. Am I right?
Baba: You are right. When man
turns inward to realize his true self, then God will become manifest to
him. Self-realization is God-realization. In simple words, it is the
realization that you are not just a body and mind with physical organs,
but there is within you a self - the Atma that is God - distinct from
these perishable things. This self is omnipotent, omnipresent and
omniscient. The comprehension of this truth puts you on the correct path
to God-realization.
Terror of Nuclear War
Q: So your objective can be summed up as a brotherhood of humanity to be achieved through the doctrine of love?
Baba:
Yes, what else can save the world from thermonuclear fires? Everything
points to the terror of conflagration coming; and My mission is to
preempt the fires by reestablishing dharma and the spiritual law of one
God, one religion, one language embracing one humanity.
I
preach only one religion of love for all, which alone can integrate the
human race into a brotherhood of man under the fatherhood of God. I know
only one language of the heart beyond the mind or the intellect which
relates man to man and mankind to God, thereby creating mutual
understanding, cooperation and community life in peace and harmony. On
this basis I want to build one humanity without any religious, caste or
other barriers in a universal empire of love which would enable My
devotees to feel the whole world as their family.
Q: Well said, Baba -- but wouldn't this dharma with its Hindu orientation conflict with the established religions?
Baba:
No, it will not do anything of the kind because My objective is the
establishment of sanathana dharma, which believes in one God as
propitiated by the founders of all religions. So none has to give up his
religion or deity, but through them worship the one God in all. I have
come not to disturb or destroy but to confirm and vindicate everyone in
his own faith.
Q: But how will that prevent a nuclear holocaust?
Baba:
By removing all causes, sources, barriers and provocations of class,
caste, creed, color and race, and replacing the existing hate and
violence with love and non-violence. I expect to provide humanity with
an evangel of peaceful cooperation to replace the present escalation to
death by co-destruction.
R.K.Karanjia: Thank you, Swamiji.
I am all the more grateful to you because I really did not expect you
to answer the whole long list of my questions.
